Roy and Delores Shavers

Roy: 1905-1990

Delores: 1902-1998

Roy Shavers was born in Centralia and schooled in Clinton, Illinois. He grew up in a business-oriented family and started his own housecleaning business as a young man. He ran this business for more than half a century. He speaks about early twentieth century businesses, the Negro baseball teams, and much more.

Delores Harber Shavers grew up in Bloomington and Pontiac. She lived for a time with her white grandmother and white step-grandfather. She worked in downtown stores before going to Chicago to study to be a beautician. Mrs. Shavers had her own beauty shop for many years. She was active in community service and in St. Mary's Catholic Church. She also talks about the Melody Gospel Chorus with which her father was involved.

Black History

November 3rd, 1986

Interviewers: Mildred Pratt

November 3, 1986. I am at the home of Mr. and Mrs. Roy Shavers at \[address omitted\] in Bloomington. Mr. Shavers is going to begin talking.

My name is Roy Shavers.

Roy Shavers. And you were born where?

I was born in Centralia, Illinois.

Would you tell me the names of your parents?

Clara. William and Clara Shavers.

Do you remember your grandparents, the names of your grandparents on your mother's side and your father's side?

My grandmother on my mother's side was Emma Covington, and my grandfather was Joseph Covington.

Were they related to the physician Covington who was in this community?

No, there was a different Covington.

Now, were your parents born in Centralia?

My father was born in Tennessee, and my mother was born in the state of Illinois. Let's see, it wasn't Centralia.

Carlyle, wasn't' it?

Carlyle, Illinois.

Now, your father-when did your father come to Illinois, do you remember? Any idea at all about what time it was, the period?

Let me see. Ethel was. Well, all the kids was born in Illinois. That's a good one. I really don't remember.

Would it have been the late 1800s do you think?

Well, it would be late. It would be late 1800s.

All right, because I know that quite a few Black people left the South around that time and moved North, that is why I was wondering?

In fact my folks, my mother-we were an integrated family. We never lived in the South.

Your mother never lived in the South?

No.

Just your father did?

Just my father was born in the South, and he left the South at a really early age. Then he come to Illinois.

Would you say that he left when he was an adult or when he was a child?

He was a youngster.

And he came with his family?

Yes, evidently come with his family.

What did he do, how much what level of education did he achieve?

My father as a youngster or as an adult?

As an adult.

As an adult, he was a very fine chef, a cook. As far as education, I don't know what, he must have had a fairly good education because he was a very fine chef. In fact, he was in business for himself for years and years and years.

Would you tell me about that, more about that?

Yes. He was in business in a little town of Clinton, Illinois twenty-two miles from here. Very few Blacks lived there. The ones that lived there they were practically all related. My father started a business, a restaurant business and catered to white because very few Blacks was there. He was in the restaurant business for years and years, and then he went into tailoring. He had a tailoring business.

Now, this was in Clinton?

Yes, in Clinton, a tailoring business. He was part owner of a billiard-room business with another white person. At his death, he was still-had just disposed of the business.

So now your father came to Clinton when he came to Illinois?

That's right when he come to Illinois, he came to Clinton.

Did your mother work?

My mother never worked a day in her life.

Except at home?

Except in the home, right.

Right. (from the background)

I should have asked you something about your father and his business. As far as you know, he was in business from the time you remember until his death, and then was the business discontinued then?

The business was sold at his death.

Now, what was the name of his business? Do you remember?

Well, it was-let's see, the tailoring business. There was a name of the restaurant. I forget the name of the restaurant.

Did it have his name?

Yes, his name was William, but they called him Bill. He was known as Bill. The tailoring business was under Shavers. It was under Shavers Tailoring business. The restaurant was under Shavers and Coates.

Was your father involved at all in politics or any kind of organizations to your knowledge?

My father was, yes. He was in some politics, but he was very religious, and he was considered one of the pillars of he community in this small town among whites and Blacks. Well, let me see. As I say he was.

Did he hold any kind of an office as a politician?

No, no. No politics.

Did he help elect people? Did he have leadership in helping elect people into office, to your knowledge?

I think so, yes. He was influential in that way.

What do you remember about your father's personality?

He was a fine person. We played baseball together. He was a little man, short heavy-set man. He liked baseball. We had a baseball team, I remember as a child, and of course there were quite a few people traveling on the railroad coming through. Clinton, Illinois at that time was a Illinois Central division railroad. They had railroad shops there. Very, very. It was a good town, and they had a lot of Blacks that would come through. They were on what they call "extra gangs." So we picked up a baseball team from that. That is where we got our baseball players. He was very well liked. Everybody liked him, Black and white.

So, would you say that he really had a good business? It was very profitable?

Very profitable business. I have never been hungry in my life, and he was a good father. Made us a good living. At the time, I remember that we was, well, the second Black family in that town to ever own an automobile. (laughs) And we were about the third. Well, we were the second Black family that ever had indoor toilet.

Is that right, that was very important, I know? (laughter)

Yeah. He was highly respected.

Did he ever tell you how he became interested in the restaurant business, the tailoring business, and how he learned the skills?

In the restaurant? No. He was just. My mother was sickly, and my father did all the cooking and like that, and as I say, he was just a fine cook, and he developed a real good business, a profitable business.

Now, why don't we talk about your mother now? What was her name, her first name?

Clara Covington.

Where was she born?

Mother was born in-let me see.

Carlyle.

Carlyle, Illinois around Centralia.

What was the background of her parents?

Her mother was. Let me see, Grandma lived with us, I remember as a child. In fact, she lived with us until she passed. That's my mother's mother. She lived with us. Of course, that goes back quite a ways, but she made her home with my mother and father.

Did you say something that your family was interracial?

My. Yes, we have.

His grandmother was white, wasn't she?

Grandmother, well she was English, Dutch and Irish. Dutch and Irish and very, very light. Of course, I don't know-they never talked too much about it.

Now her husband was he Black or white? Your mother's mother, was her husband white or Black?

Oh, no. He was Black.

He was Black, yes. Now, tell me about your mother. What do you remember about her?

My mother was very pretty, very vain, and she just loved to travel. She liked good clothes. She liked the better things in life.

Was that because she was used to those things when she was grew up as a young child?

Yes, I think so.

How many children?

There was six-three boys and three girls.

What was life like for you growing up in Clinton?

Happy. I didn't know I was Black. All my friends was white. I played basketball, played baseball. I lost a friend here about two years ago, a banker. John, he was the president of the John Warner Bank here in Clinton. I was at his house as much as I was at home. I didn't even know that I was Black.

So there really were no problems that you had at school?

No, I had no problems.

What school did you attend?

Grade school and high school in Clinton.

Did you graduate from the high school?

No, I didn't.

What about your brothers and sisters, did they graduate?

Yes. My oldest brother and my oldest sister and well, let's see-Ethel. I was the onliest one that didn't graduate. I went until my sophomore year. I quit in my sophomore year.

Yes, I see. You dropped out of school to work or.?

I dropped out of school. In fact, they tried to keep me in school, and at that age I guess I...

Spoiled. That's what it was,

Spoiled.

He had a car and run up and down the road.

It is good to have the wife present when you talk. (laughs) You had a car yourself?

He was the baby boy, and they gave him everything.

Yes, I had my own car.

So your family-they were very well to do then?

Yeah, we were considered the.

Rich.

I won't say that, but we were considered well to do. In fact, there was about three or four families that was supposed to be well-to-do families in the city there, and these were farmers-one was farmers and another was real estate people. We were considered the cream of the. You know.

So you owned-your family owned your home, right?

Oh yes.

Did your father construct the home, or did he build it?

No, I think he bought it, and remodeled it as people did in those days.

And you lived in that one home all of your growing up years?

All of my growing up years until I left and come to Bloomington.

Tell me about the occasion on which you came to Bloomington. Why you came to Bloomington, and when you came?

The university was here. The girls were here.

Oh, that's where all of the girls were? (laughs)

In those days, there wasn't too much-not like it is now. We had very little and, of course, the Blacks at least had to make their livelihood. But Bloomington has been good to me.

So what did you do when you first came here? You had this car, and you went around with the ladies.

Well, I had a little orchestra. A friend and I had a little band. But I have always worked. I have always had a job. I remember that my first job in Bloomington, I was a chauffeur. I lied about my age to get the job.

As a chauffeur?

I always worked. I worked for a man with a very prominent family, Hudson Burr. They were wealthy people here in Bloomington. And I chauffeured for him. And I had this little band, and then I got tired of working for him, and I went to work for Judge T. Lillard.

As a chauffeur?

As a chauffeur. Judge \[John T.\] Lillard was related to the Davises. Judge Davis here in town. I worked for. Let me see that would bring me up to-one other job I had, if you want to call it a job in those days. I worked for my wife's father. He had a cleaning and press tailoring shop. I worked for him extra. Then I.

started the housecleaning.

I started-her father had a housecleaning business. And I helped him. Learnt the business. Then I decided that I would go into business for myself, and, now of course, that was right after the Depression time. Dorrie and I were sweet on each other, and so I decided that-my father always said that if you can make it for somebody else, you make it for yourself. So I ventured into. I went into the cleaning business. Well, we didn't. Let's see, \[19\]31-\[19\]29 (unintelligible). In fact we got married right in the Depression. We got married right in the Depression.

And by that time you had your own business, is that right?

I was just getting started. I was just getting started in my own business. See, the Depression was in \[19\]29, and we got married in \[19\]31. Things were rough, but I was still lucky because the people I was connected with were the only one that had any money.

They were wealthy so you. (laughs)

The banks closed and everything. I remember the different ones I was with. One owned a coal company. T. F. Harwood had a coal company and owned a lot of real estate. And I worked for a banker. Hoblitt, he was a banker for one of the big banks. They couldn't pay me, and they said, "Well, we'll eat and you'll eat." And so I remember that's when I started my own business. It was slow, but we made it. From then until well, that was in \[19\]31 we got married. And we started housekeeping in \[19\]31. I'll never forget, fifteen dollar a month rent. We had a house, and the people that I had been working for they owned quite a bit of property, and they told me, they said, "Now anything that you do on this property, fixing it up, you can take it out on the rent." He owned a coal company. Didn't have to worry about no coal. They had an interest in the Campbell food wholesale house. So I got coal, food, but very little money because the banks was closed. Some money, but very little. When we started housekeeping such as it was, we thought it was fine.

Yes, you were in good shape considering other people

Then I bought a car.

I think you like cars. (laughs)

I bought a little Ford Roadster, and it was a \[19\]29, but this was in 1931.

In \[19\]31 that was about a new car.

So how come (unintelligible) to buy the car.

Your mother wanted hers back. He had borrowed it from her.

I wanted my own now I'm married see. These people I was doing housecleaning for said, "Well, you need a car. Why don't you buy a car?" I bought the car. Of course, I bought it on time. I have always had good credit. This lady that I did a lot of work for, she had two fine cars, and she would borrow my little old car. She'd say, "Let me use your car." And she would go to the grocery store and fill it full of groceries and fill it full of gasoline.

That was nice of her. (laughs)

That was in the \[19\]30s-the first part of 1931. I got my business going.

All of her friends, she.

That's how I got-I never run an ad in my life.

They would send them to him? Is that right?

Yes, if they would go out of town, I'd have a key, and everything would be done when they came back. I was the first one who started rug cleaning in the home.

Is that right? In Bloomington?

The first one that started that. Of course, I worked up this trade. Of course, I catered strictly to the Country Club area.

They were the ones who had the money. (laughs)

So, I've been very fortunate. Well, up until seven years ago I decided that I would retire. I didn't want to retire, but I have a respiratory condition. So I had to give it up.

But you operated that business until.

I operated that business for fifty years to be truthful because we have been married fifty-five years.

Did you hire other people?

Oh yes, I had a payroll-sometimes I had six and eight men working in those periods of times.

Did you have any ladies helping?

No, only men.

Would you comment on why?

Well, during that time women, didn't go for that type of work.

All right. Yes.

They were maids in the home, but they didn't go for. See we did everything. We did wall washing. In fact, we did decorating work.

Interior decorating?

Interior decorating, yes. I'd sublet jobs, and I would work with interior decorators even from Hudson in Detroit and Marshall Fields down here because the clientele that I had here. And I worked with all the union white painters.

Underwoods in Peoria.

And Underwoods in Peoria. I had a very, very flexible business.

I should say it was.

And it was something that I liked to do.

You trained these people that worked for you?

Yes, I trained them. I was always.

White and Black?

White and Black.

Did you have difficulty keeping employees?

No, in fact at one time I had two or three. Well, I had a couple of Black policemen working for me. They were working extra time.

One is still living.

One's still living. Well, Paul Ward is still living. Girard Covington he's dead. He worked for me.

What was the name of your business?

Shaver's House Cleaning Service.

Where did it operate?

Out of the home here.

Had his office in the basement.

I want to go back before I forget it and tell me about this band, the name of it and what instrument that you played.

I was the drummer.

How did you learn to be a drummer?

Well, I just kind of picked it up. In those days we.

Well, all of the white dances out here at Shady Nook they played for.

How many people were in your band?

The most we have ever had was, I think at one time we had six.

And who were these people? Could you give me the names? Just give me those names that you remember.

Let's see, they're Curtis Hall. He's dead. Matt (Unintelligible), he's dead. Willie Larks is dead. Let's see here, Clifford (Unintelligible) he's living. He's in California. And Jerry Lynch, he's living. He's in Chicago.

How long did the band operate?

We played around here for. Let's see, I'd saw five or six years.

Is that right? This was before or during the Depression.

That's right.

Just before we got married.

Before we got-we was just out hustling, you know, making money.

Did you play for the country clubs?

No, we played for dances in all these little country towns, you know, and Decatur and, well, Springfield. Out here they had a Shady Nook. (Unintelligible) pavilion dances, you know. In those days, one place they called it a ten-cent dance. You paid a dime to dance, you know.

Oh, that's interesting. That's Tina Turner's music suggests that you pay for a dance. Did you meet any of the nationally prominent musicians while you were in your business?

I have met Fletcher Henderson and Earl Hines. Oh, the bands that we. Down to Decatur we used to have.

Fletcher Henderson. I remember that one when you played out on the road going to Springfield because I had a purse that was autographed by him.

And the Four Clefs.

All right. Fletcher Henderson I don't know, but Earl Hines yes I know. And what is it? The Four Clefs.

Yes, the Four Clefs. They're all dead now, too.

Now, who are some of the people that played in that?

Johnny Green. Johnny Green is still living. He's the onliest living. He is in California.

Was Nat King Cole.? I thought someone told me.

No. No. Bill Chapman and Johnny Green.

What was the piano player's name? James McKinney?

No, not James McKinney. \[James Marshall\] What's his name? He's a piano player. I tell you he's been dead quite a while. And I just lost all those photos in the flood. They were all on the wall. (tape is turned off)

I started an Elks Lodge here.

You did? Do you remember about when?

It was in \[19\]40. It was about \[19\]40. I organized it, and we had a real nice-one of the youngest lodges in the state of Illinois. I was the exalted ruler.

Now, the Elks Club is that a Black organization?

Yes, it's a Black organization.

All right. Is it still active?

Well, yes it's still active. I think-I don't belong to it anymore. I got out of it. But I started the Elks Lodge. Wasn't that in 1940 I started the Elks Lodge here?

Yeah.

I started it. I got the building for them, and I got all of the furniture. It was real nice. It was real organized. We worked with Champaign and Danville. I had a very good friend that was a big shot in the Elks, Dr. Frazier in Danville. He was a very well known Black dentist. As I say, I started that lodge and eventually it interfered with other things. I stayed in there for a while. I was traveling deputy and after one trip out to California in \[19\]47-I had helped set up some lodges, but I didn't care for. It had got a little.

A little rough.

You don't want to use that. (laughs) So I got out of it. And then I-my church of course.

And what is your church?

I'm Catholic. I belong to Saint Mary's Catholic Church.

Was your family?

No, no.

We're converts.

Converts. My family were Baptists.

So, you're active in the church, Saint Mary's Church.

Yes.

Any other activities?

No, outside of my church. And since I'm not in the lodge, I got other things to keep me busy now. I'm kind of a loner. All my old friends is practically gone. I stay busy. I've got properties to take care of. I have other business interests to take care of.

Oh you do have? Do you want to speak about them?

I have rental properties.

Oh, I see. I understand.

As I say, I always was a good mechanic. I can do anything, but my health won't let me do it. I can do-electrician, plumbing-you name it, I can do it. Now, since I have this upper respiratory condition, I have to be careful, and hire everything done. So I have enough to keep me busy you know what I mean. I have enough just here. But outside of that, I have. There's three or four ole buddies still around, and I can make some money.

That you get together with.

Oh yes. We think of each other, you know.

What about military were you involved in that?

No, I wasn't in the military, but I had to go into the war plant. I had to work in the war plant right here in Bloomington. I worked for Eureka. It was.

Eureka Williams it is now.

But it was. What was the name of that?

Eureka Williams bought it out.

But is was a war plant during World War II?

He ran his business at the same time.

I ran my business at the same time.

From eleven to seven-we were married-and then he would come home at seven in the morning and go on these jobs he had lined up.

So I worked hard all my life, no wonder I.

But you are quite an entrepreneur, though. You can manage your own business.

As I say my associates, the people I did business with, were such wonderful people. They respected me.

We've been to their homes for cocktails and different things like that.

Friends, right? Was their a chauffeur's club?

No, there was no chauffeur's club. That was before my time. I remember my uncle through marriage speaking of that.

But you wouldn't know anything about that.

No, that goes back too far.

Are there any other things about your life or the lives of your relatives that we have not covered that you want to speak about?

Can you think of anything?

Well, Maceo your older brother was in business for himself in Rockford. In fact, all of the kids-the father raised them like that. If you can make money for somebody else, you can make it for yourself.

Yes, my oldest brother he had a restaurant, a tavern, and he was a baseball player, too. He played baseball, professional baseball on the Black.

What was his name?

Maceo. Maceo Shavers. \[resided at 301 East Clay Street in 1917\] He had a nickname. They called him "Porkchops."

Oh, he played with the Black professional team.

Yes, he did, and he lived in Rockford.

Where was he living when he signed up to play with them?

He was in Rockford.

So when he left Clinton, he went to Rockford?

Well, when he left Clinton, he left as a seventeen or eighteen year old boy. He went to war. He never spent too much time around this area because when he got out of service, he was up around Rockford and Beloit, Wisconsin through that area up through there.

When did he play for the Black baseball team?

Well, that would have been before Satchel. Well, let me see.

Did he play with Satchel Paige?

No, he didn't play with Satchel Paige. I'm trying to think of some of these outfits. You know the Blacks-they just run all over the country. It wasn't like it is now, you know. They had to pick their game, underpaid. I think he played with one outfit they called Morehouse and Wells, and that was out. I think that was out of Chicago. But.

About how many years did he play, do you know?

He played about four or five years. But as I say there was very little pay in those days. You did it cause you liked to do it. But he was in business for himself in Rockford. Nightclub business-nightclub and restaurant business.

Say his name clearly on the tape.

Maceo Shavers.

And his nickname was?

Porkchops.

Because when we are working on this, we may be able to find information about the club, and it would be good to be able to point that out. Do you have a photograph of your brother?

Yes, I do.

I want to be sure to get a copy of that.

I have a photograph of my brother and my father.

Your other brother died when he was nine.

We're all living except him. As I say, the girls, my sisters, they married. Good marriages. We're a very fortunate family. They all own their own homes, beautiful homes.

Where do they live, your sisters? Are they in this area?

I have one sister in Los Angeles, California, and I have two sisters in Decatur. They own their own homes, and they are pretty well fixed, you know.

Your father's father probably was in business or had an interest in business, don't you think so?

Could have been?

You don't know?

No. I met.

Do you know any of your father's people?

Only Reverend Shavers, I met in California, remember?

Yes. After we were married-accidentally. The strangest thing. We were visiting California and each time we were introduced to someone, they would say, "Oh, are you related to Reverend Shavers?"Roy said, "No, I don't have any relatives here." The lady who was visiting had a friend, and they had brunches and lunches and everything in California, and she was invited to this brunch, and she said, "I have company from Illinois."And they said, "Well, bring them." And this Reverend Shavers was there. And they looked like they was two peas in a pod.

As a rule, not many Shavers. There are quite a few Shaver. S-H-A-V-E-R. But not with the "s."

And Shafer.

But not Shavers. And he was a Shavers. And we got to talking and he had pictures.

"Oh, is that so and so?"

He was the son of my father's brother.

So he was your nephew?

First cousin.

First cousin. I'm sorry, first cousin. That's right.

Yes, we had a field day. He was with an inter-racial church in San Diego, a large church.

Isn't that unbelievable, though?

It was.

So as I say, we-the family tree is-my sister and brother-in-law, well, they're in Los Angeles, a beautiful home. But she's been very ill, but she's getting along pretty good now. My nephews. I'm proud of them. I've got one that's with Caterpillar in Decatur. He's a supervisor. He's a college graduate. Then I got another one. He's with Caterpillar. He's got a very fine job. Then I've got. So they're all.

doing quite well then.

They're are doing well, very well.

Do you still have any relatives in Clinton at all?

Yes, I have. I have first cousins in Clinton.

These are your mother's relatives.

Yes, I have the first cousin, and they got two or three kids. And they've been there. They won't leave Clinton. Clinton's not a bad town. Have you ever been to Clinton?

I have passed through it, and there is a park there that we visited. I can't remember the name of it now. It was a very nice park.

Of course, they got that nuclear plant there now. (Unintelligible) No, Clinton as I say a lot I know a lot of people who drive back and forth. When I first started, even as far back as \[19\]40 and \[19\]41 I had a housecleaning service in Decatur, too. I drove back and forth. I had one going here, and I had one going in Decatur.

You need to teach some of these young Black boys how to do things like that, to be independent.

You know, I begged. I have one boy. He's right here in Bloomington now. He was with me for about fifteen years. When I got ready to. I had to quit, health wise. I asked him, I says, "Thurman, take over this business. I'll give you the business. Give you business and help you." I said, "Why don't you take it. I just hate. " You know.And he had worked with me and knew a lot of my very best customers. He said, "I appreciate it, but I don't want the responsibility."

This is the way with young people now. The young people are just like that now. Yes.

End Side A; Tape 1

Side B: Tape 1

We married in.

Six months before we got married.

My mother died in \[19\]72.

So she lived quite a long time after your father died. Did she remain in Clinton?

No. She was in Decatur.

Oh, she went to Decatur to live. How did she manage once your father died? Was she able to manage her life fairly well?

Oh, yes. My mother never wanted for a thing in her life. We took better care of her than we did ourselves.

In later years she remarried.

Later years she remarried, but she was still "Mom," you know.

Was she a very independent lady?

Independent! She was independent.

And vain.

Vain.

Nobody was good enough for her son. (laughter)

Your father was responsible for that, right. He just babied her, right? (laughs)

Well, I sure miss her.

She was a nice person, though.

I guess we'll start with you and then. (taped is turned off) Mr. Shavers is going to tell about some of the changes that he has observed over the years in Bloomington.

You take in the latter years things has improved, but during the Depression and after the Depression-well, in the thirties up through there Bloomington was segregated. It was segregated.

It was prejudiced.

Very prejudiced. The schools wasn't prejudiced, but work and at one time the theaters was prejudiced. Of course, that all broke down. You didn't get the good jobs.

How did you happen to get the job with the war industry? What was the name of it?

The Eureka plant?

That was a government deal, you see. They had a government contract. And I went in as a boss over janitors in the maintenance department. I was the boss over the janitors.

They knew that was his line of business.

That's how I got that, but as I say-discrimination, yeah. They always got the worst jobs. Very few had-you had to make your job. That's the reason I decided I'd make my job. And I've got two or three friends that did the same here in town. They made their jobs. And they come out, and they made money. We kind of look at each other and pat each other on the back because you had to be better than the other guy. Whatever you did had to be better. It's changed some now, but it's still a little rocky. Right now it's a little rocky. Now, if you can buy a home- you can buy a home, if you've got the money, practically anywhere if you've got the money. But when I was coming up, you couldn't buy a home. Certain areas you couldn't buy a home. When I built this house...

When did you build this house?

I built this house in \[19\]56. And when I bought this property, a man come down the street, and he wanted to know-from my father-in-law I bought this lot. There never was anything here. My wife's father owned these two properties up here (unintelligible) house here. And they seen them start building. The man talked to my father-in-law, and said, "They tell me that Colored people are building this house here."

You see my father looked like white. He said, "Oh, yeah. I wonder what the neighbors are going to think." My father said, "I'm sure I don't know, but it's my daughter and her husband that's building the house." He got a big kick out of telling him that.

That's interesting. I'm sure he turned kind of red.

I imagine. So when they broke ground here to build this house, I paid the payroll while the house was being built. I never owed a mortgage. I paid the payroll as it was being built. It's forty-three tons of Bedford stone on this house. I had it all hauled in from Bedford, Indiana. And I hired my own contractor...

That's right. Indiana has the good stone, doesn't it? In the southern part of Indiana.

That's right. All the decorating-there was nothing on here. Everything on here I put on here.

Did you two design...?

We designed. It's our plans. Our own plans.

The plan was damaged in the flood?

Yes, but I've got that just about whipped now downstairs. A man is coming today to clean the floors.

Here's some of the stuff.

Now, once you moved in, did you have any trouble in the neighborhood?

Oh, no.

No. Do you know what they say?

Best looking house.

Best looking house and the best house in the neighborhood. Everybody wanted to come and go through it, you know. And so it was all right.

So this is...

That was furniture in the basement. Nothing happened upstairs. This was all downstairs.

Now, this was after you took it out, right?

There was water in the basement.

That was great that you got to take these.

So, anyway, when we-our neighbors was all white as I say. There's a Black family living next door here, and before they would sell that house to this family, the neighbors called us and wanted to know...

did we have any objections?

if we had any objections. (laughter)

(laughs) The white neighbors called you.

Called us. Wanted to know if we had any objection to letting a Black family buy that place.

That's interesting, isn't it. So they accepted you as white. (laughs)

See, we had block parties, and they came to our house.

We had Christmas parties.

You were part of the system, yes. That's very interesting. Now, was this the first house you personally owned?

No, no. The first house I owned was over on Jackson Street about a block from the Catholic Church.

Did you build that one?

No. I bought that one and rebuilt it. Then I come on down here (unintelligible) house up here, and we built this one. We had-I got a house in Decatur. Part owner of a house in Decatur, too.

Now is this the only one you actually designed and built?

This is it. This is the one I designed. This is all our own plans. Not a dry wall in it. Everything is plaster.

Is that right?

Everything is plaster. Inter-com system all the way through, and the patio and...

Did you do any of the work yourself?

No. Oh, you know, I did some.

You were your own contractor.

Nobody could do any decorating like that. Subcontracted most of the plumbing and all the stone work had to be... See we got double fireplaces. Fireplaces up and down. (unclear) our fireplaces are out in the corner. What did you say Babe?

All the plasterers that built this come from Champaign. They were Black.

I hired as much Black as I could.

"We're going to give you a good job because you're one of us." They plastered all the walls. A crew of eight or ten of them, I think, was here.

That's marvelous. So you avoided through your own efforts having to deal with discrimination because you developed your own business.

That's right. And I built my own house. I always could have gotten too much credit. And as I say now, the only mistake I made was I built in this area. I should have gone...

Then you couldn't.

You couldn't buy.

You couldn't buy property in certain neighborhoods? In \[19\]56, you couldn't? Is that right?

No.

We saw a lot out on North Main as you go to Normal. The people were getting ready to sign the papers on a Sunday. The people said, "You aren't Colored are you?" And talking to us. All afternoon they talked to us. And Roy said, "No I'm blugh, thugh, thugh." They said, "That's all right because we didn't think we could afford to sell it to Colored people."

Isn't that interesting? They are really dumb, right? They're talking to you, and they say...

Then the next deal. As I say, I had a rich real estate dealer and a rich banker who said, "I'll tell you what we'll do. We'll buy it and turn around." I said, "If I got to get it that way, I don't want it."

That's the way they said they would sell it to you. Was it difficult for Black people to get mortgages? Loans?

Yes, it was. I don't know how it is now. Very few people in those days owned their own homes. I think now there might be a few, but I think very few. They say no discrimination, but you know.

But there was. Do you when things began to change, and why do you think they began to change?

Things changed after all this...

After the war.

No. I mean in the sixties things started changing after schools had all the trouble in the schools, you know. And it seemed to kind of start changing, but I'd say in the last fifteen years. Now, if you've got the money, if you've got the down payment, you can go out here and buy practically anywhere. If you can get the mortgage money. They're glad to sell it to you hoping you'll lose it. (laughter) As I say, Bloomington is-there's a lot of culture here. It's a beautiful place to raise a family. The automobile plant might help it some. I don't think it will help our people too much because...

It's skilled labor.

Skilled labor. It's going to have to be. That's the trouble.

Well, we'll start with you Mrs. Shavers and see how far we get then. (tape is turned off) If you'll begin again then.

My name is Delores Marie Shavers, and I was born and raised in Bloomington. And I lived here all my life except after my mother died when I was five, an aunt and a grandmother raised my sister and I. And my aunt had to work. So therefore we couldn't be alone so we moved to Pontiac with my father's mother who was white. Very strict with us. Of course, we were two little Black kids living in a white home. But she had married a Black man, but he had died, and she remarried a white man. Grandpa, he was very good to us though. He was what they call a track walker on the railroad, and there wasn't a pay day that he didn't take the two little Black grandchildren to town to buy us something. Up until I was about twelve years old, I lived here in Bloomington and went to Bloomington schools. Then after my grandmother died, we went to Pontiac, and I went to school there and graduated from high school in Pontiac. Used to always say when I get old enough, I'm leaving here. (laughs)

Oh, you did, that you were going to leave Pontiac?

Because I didn't like it there. My sister stayed. My father stayed single. He was only twenty-nine. My mother was twenty-nine when she died. My father was twenty-nine. Of course, that's why the grandparents taken the girls because a man that young I guess they thought couldn't raise children, two girls. He passed for white, and he was up and down the road all the time.

When you mean up and down the road, meaning?

He was a traveling salesman for a tailoring company. After he settled down, I guess, in later years, he did remarry and moved to Galesburg, Illinois. My sister and I went to Galesburg to live for a while, but my aunt was so taken with the two girls she was back and forth to check on us, you know. Finally, I guess it wasn't a very good step-mother, you know, so Grandma and Aunt Cora brought us back to Pontiac. So we finished school in Pontiac, Illinois. What else did you have?

Let's see now, I want to be sure that we get-your mother's name was?

Frances Thomas.

Frances Thomas. And she came from?

She was born in Bloomington, Illinois.

And she died when.?

When she was twenty-nine years old.

Now her father-what about her parents?

Her father was a policeman here. And also a brother.

What was her father's name?

Jack Thomas. Well, they drove the patrol wagon, but they wore police uniforms because I remember seeing the pictures in their uniforms. I didn't know my grandfather. I never remember seeing him at all. But I did know Uncle Jack. But I didn't know my grandfather. Where he was born and where he come from, I couldn't tell you.

So that was your mother's father. And what about your mother's mother?

Her mother? I don't know where she was born either.

Did you ever see her?

Oh, yes. She's the one that raised us after my mother died.

Her name?

Margaret. Margaret Thomas. What her maiden name was I don't know?

And she was the one who lived in Pontiac.

\- No. My mother's mother lived in Bloomington. And my father's mother lived in Pontiac. My father was born and raised in Pontiac.

And it was your father whose mother was white?

Yes.

And what-English or what?

She was English, yes.

Do you know how they had happened to have come to Pontiac?

Yes. I do. My grandmother used tell us when we were little kids living there. Seems like her mother and her step-father lived on a farm out on the edge of town in Pontiac. Grandpa Pete's mother washed for Grandma Harber's people. And Grandpa Pete would take the washing back and forth. Grandma Harber didn't get along with her step-father, and he used to tell her, "Stay away from that Colored boy." And they used to swing on the gate talking. She used to get the biggest kick out of telling us this. And finally they decided to run off and get married. They ran off and got married up in El Paso, I think, or some little town up the road. This step-father was so disgusted he taken the mother and went back to Europe. Said they disowned her because she had married this Black man, you know. But when he died, Grandpa Pete had sent to Europe to bring the mother, the mother-in-law back to Illinois. Grandma has told that story so many times I think I lived it. She lived with them up until Papa was born. And I think it was about a year or two before I was born. Papa was married a year or two before I was born. I didn't ever see her, you know. Just the pictures of her that Grandma had on the wall. But I never saw her, but I remember she had a piece of hair that she had cut and had it in the picture by her mother's picture you know. But I never saw her at all. But to me that was always.

That's a fascinating story.

We had a lot of dealings with Grandma (Unintelligible).

Yes. After Grandpa Pete-I don't know what their trouble was, but her Black husband and her had two children, Aunt Daisy and my father. My father was very, very fair, and the daughter was about my color I guess. Well, she always resented it, you know, the two kids. Aunt Daisy resented her brother being so light and thought that he got all the favors in the family. So she left home, and I don't remember much about her either. But Papa, as I said, all his teenage days he passed for white.

In Bloomington.

No, no. In Pontiac. But he was very religious. It seemed like he got hooked up in a church of some kind. And he wasn't a minister-well, he was a local minister in his later years. But he come to Bloomington and went to the Methodist Church. I guess that's where he met my mother because... Then they got married because I had a big piece in the paper where the caption was "A Swell Colored Wedding."

Do you have that?

Yes. I have that. As I say my father was born and raised in Pontiac, and my mother was born and raised in Bloomington. Let me see now.

What about your father? What kind of work did he do? You said he was a sales person.

For a tailoring company. Then he was in the restaurant business, too.

He was in the restaurant business, and he was in the tailoring business. He was in the housecleaning business. And he was at the post office.

He worked at the post office for twenty-five years.

When he retired, he was at the post office.

He had a mind. You'd give him that many figures, and he could add them up just like that. He's the one who-if we'd have listened to him, we'd have owned half of this territory down here.

So he did work at the post office in Bloomington.

Oh, yes. He retired there.

When did he retire?

I have an article and clipping of him when he retired.

What was his name now?

Frank Harber.

Did your mother work outside the home?

Not that I know of. You see I was quite young when she passed. And I know when I had my physical at the doctor's, I said, " I don't even know what she died with." They always ask you what your parents died off, but I don't remember, you know. In those days, the older people didn't tell us.

They didn't talk to children about those personal things very much.

On your birth certificate.

(Unintelligible) white on my birth certificate.

Dr. Covington brought you here in the world.

Dr. Covington is the Black physician.

He was a Black physician.

\- He was the only one we had in those days up until he passed. He belonged to the boards of all the hospitals.

Oh, he did. So he didn't have trouble with the...

Oh, no. He was a fine doctor.

No, right now if you talked to the better class of white person, they'd say, "Oh, he's a fine person." I don't remember-I know my mother-I don't know whether she worked or not. The childhood experiences-I think I was in the third or fourth grade when I left here in Bloomington and went to Pontiac to live with my other grandmother.

And you graduated from high school there?

From high school in Pontiac. And about the ancestry-I don't know about no slavery or emancipation or anything like that. And I didn't have any brothers-I had a brother, but he died when he was two or three years old. I don't remember him.

Did you have a sister?

Yes. She died when she was. There was four in our family. Three girls and one brother. And they all died early, at an early age. Just my sister and I are living now.

Do you know if there was some kind of-in that time was there some kind of outbreak of disease?

No, no.

No, my brother was on a little tricycle, and one of the little Hoagland boys in here.

Now, Hoagland. Go ahead and talk.

A Hoagland boy and he was playing, and it seems like they pushed this tricycle, and it tilted back and he fell on his head. At that time he had a brain tumor, had a clot, and couldn't...

An accident.

Yes, it was clearly an accident.

Accident, and I think they said my sister had double pneumonia, and she died two weeks before my mother did. I remember Grandma and them talking about how they wrapped mother up in a-her feet. Of course, they had horses and carriages to take them to the cemetery, and Mama wanted to go to the funeral. And they took bricks and heated them to keep her feet warm, but I don't remember that. I just remember Aunt Cora and Grandma talking about it. I told you about Papa.

Before I forget it, you mentioned Hoagland. And I understand there was some Hoagland who...

Reverend Hoagland. He had the Third Christian Church.

Oil of Gladness?

Oil of Gladness, yes.

Yes, way back.

Oil of Gladness. Un-huh. He was the pastor of the Third Christian Church here. All of our family went to Third Christian Church. There was a Loraine Hoagland was about my age. In fact she was. We all grew up. He had several kids, but Loraine I remember and Roland. Roland was a mortician in Detroit in later years, you know. During the time when we was growing up, Loraine was the only one I can remember of the Hoaglands. But we were friends. They lived on Jefferson Street. We lived on Monroe just across the alley like. So we were friends. This aunt that raised me she was a cateress here in Bloomington. She did fancy parties.

What was her name?

Cora Osborne \[903 West Market in \[19\]20s and \[19\]30s\].

What was the name of her business?

She didn't have a business. She'd fix a party for you and maybe one of your friends would want a party, and she'd fix a party for them. I don't think they called it a business in those days. It was just her way of living, you know. She made her living. And she had two girls and a mother to take care of because her husband had died. Plus she had her own son to take care of. And later my husband and I had her for ten years. She was ninety-one when she died. We had her for ten years. We finally had to put her in a nursing home. She didn't have any aches or pains. She was very proud. And proud of us, you know.

When you graduated from high school. You graduated from Pontiac, what happened?

Well, I went to Watseka and lived with my father for a while. He had remarried and like all step-mothers I didn't get along with her too well.

Now Watseka's a small...

Yes, it's a small town. We were the only Black family there. There was one out in the country-the Gorenses. They were farmers. We went to white churches and white schools. There was an Indian family there that I used to socialize with, but we were the only really Black family there. My father had a cleaning and pressing place there and a shoe shining thing. He catered to all the little town. In fact, he would collect clothing and send it some place-I don't know, but I remember taking it around the corner to the depot to pick up and bring it back. And he would press them, and people would come to get it. I can't understand that just exactly. He would collect the clothing and send it off to Kankakee, I think.

Where they had a large plant.

A large plant to clean them.

They'd do the cleaning , and then he'd do the alterating \[sic\] and the pressing.

But I didn't like it there so I come back to Bloomington and lived with this aunt that I was telling you about. Then I worked downtown at the Newmarket Department Store. My father had a restaurant here. He had come back to Bloomington in the meantime. And he had a restaurant here.

What was the name of that?

Frank Harber's Restaurant.

Frank Arber's Restaurant.

Frank Harber.

H-A-R-B-E-R.

Where was it located?

Under the viaduct on South Main where the old Third Ward Club is now. Where the old club is now, but it was a restaurant.

All kinds of people went there.

Oh, yeah. All Colored and white.

At the time the viaduct was being built. And all those people who worked on the viaduct ate at my father's restaurant because they couldn't eat at the white ones. They ate at my father's restaurant. I worked downtown at Newmarket, and of course, it was my job if I come wait table at noon, got my meals free. But I couldn't stand the type of people that worked on the railroad, pinching and going on when I was waiting tables. And Papa fired me. (unintelligible)

What did you do at the department store?

Beauty shop. I was a beauty operator.

How did you learn how to do this?

I went into this white shop as an apprentice, and they taught me. Then I decided that I didn't like this. I was young in those days, of course. It was a big department store and on the same floor that the beauty shop was they had their ready to wear department. And this Jew come down one morning and wanted to know if I'd like to work in another department, and I said "Yeah."So I worked at wrapping packages and making out the tickets for the sales ladies in a little cage you know where they'd bring the stuff up. Then Mr. Klein decided that he was going to-he had nine, eight brothers. They were going to open their own store here. He wanted to know if I would leave Newmarket and go to work for him in this other store \`cause he-he said, "I'll give you a good job." So I left and about three or four of the sales ladies downtown, and where the beauty school is now they had a big department store there.

Yes, I remember that Klein's Department Store.

I was the shipping clerk there. All the merchandise come through me. I marked it and got it in stock, except shoes and hats were lease departments. I would send out merchandise that didn't move in such a length of time. I would ship it out to another store-they had nine stores. What they didn't move they'd ship to me. (tape is turned off) I opened up with them and went bankrupt with them. (laughs)

So you worked there for how long?

Let me see. When did I go there? That's before you and I were married. I probably worked there until 1930.

Yeah, because you was working there when we got married. They gave you your wedding dress.

The store gave me my wedding dress, and they had big parties and things for me, you know. Showers and things. A bunch of them come to the wedding that was supposed to be at my father's house. They made all the arrangements for the minister and the photographer and everything. My father kept telling Roy, "You can't get married because you got the license in another town." We were going to slip and not let them know we were married.

Oh, you were going to...

He got the license in Clinton out in a different county. You have to get married in the county where you got your license, and we didn't know that. We were supposed to get married at four o'clock in the afternoon, and it was seven at night before we got married.

You had to go to Clinton?

We had to go to Clinton. There were about six or seven cars that followed us down there. And the first church we stopped at...

The Nazarene Church.

We asked the minister if he'd marry us.

I think this is fascinating. (laughs)

So they told (unintelligible) come up to my mother's house. She's in Clinton.

She wasn't expecting you people.

Oh, yes. She was waiting. Everyone was there. We went down there, and we ended up getting married at my mother's house.

The preacher-we didn't want to go in to his... It was a white church, a little Nazarene Church.

The preacher come over to our house.

Mother said, "None of the kids ever got married at my house. Could we have it at my house?" So he left his congregation and come over around the corner and married us.

We have to have the details of this story down. Did you know this church before you went there?

No.

The first church you saw. What time? What day?

On a Sunday.

Sunday. And what time was it now?

It was a church service time. It must have been about seven o'clock in the evening. Because we were supposed to have gotten married at four here, but we couldn't.

Now it's about seven o'clock, and you happened to decide to go in there. And you found the minister. What was he doing at the time?

Waiting for his congregation to start his church.

And you found him in his office?

I went into the altar and asked for the preacher and told him what I wanted. He said, "I'd be happy to." Told him the circumstances. He jumped in the car and-it was only about three blocks from my mother's house. Come on in and performed the marriage, and I'll never forget it. Then we all jumped in the car and come back to Bloomington for the reception.

I think that is absolutely fascinating.

Sometimes we rehash that thing over and over. That brings you up to where the store. The store went bankrupt.

Wait a minute now. When you came back here, where did you have the reception?

At my father's house.

And all of the people followed you there and followed you back here? All right.

Tin cans and things on the car for twenty-two miles.

I think that's very romantic.

It was cute after you thought about it, but all the girls at the store and managers and all was at the wedding, you know. But we wasn't telling anyone in Bloomington we was getting married, you know.

Did you people really think you could get by without telling anyone?

All these people when they found out we was married said, "They're going to be together six months because he thinks he's important, and she thinks she's(\[drowned out by laughter)." Give \`em six months to be together. Six months. And boy do I rub it down on them now. It's been fifty-five years.

We went on a honeymoon, too. Went to Yellowstone Park.

Did you drive?

I had a new car. We went to Yellowstone National Park on our honeymoon. What were we gone-about two or three weeks, wasn't it?

I had two weeks. I was still working at the store, and he had his business, getting his business started.

I think that's fantastic. So when you came back, did you go back to work at Klein's?

No, I decided I wanted to take up beauty work. So I went to the Chicago Beauty School, and I graduated from the Chicago Beauty School, and I come back and had my own beauty shop. From 19.... Well, clear up till we built this house.

So you both were pretty independent people, right?

When she was in beauty school, I continued to run my business. When she got out of beauty school, I bought the house on Jackson Street and had all her equipment in.

If I hadn't have graduated, it would have been a sad day.

Then things begin to really shine for us. From then we continued.

So each of you had your business. Did you hire people to help you?

(Unintelligible). I had a couple of Normal students, Theresa Lawche from Chicago that was going to school. And I did all the students' hair and a lot of people here in Bloomington. And Theresa was a nice young girl. And I had a niece that was going out there. So Theresa would come and do a lot of the shampooing. Her mother was a beauty operator in Chicago. So she had been around it, you know. She did a lot of shampooing and picking up towels and things for me. I think, she had gone to beauty school in Chicago.

Yes, she had.

So she knew the work.

She was good.

So she helped me you know. I'd give her a little money and do her hair. I helped her both ways. Get her hair done and get a little change, too. And I heard from her mother here just about a couple of years ago telling me-she was a school teacher. After she graduated from her, she was a school teacher. And she was an exchange teacher between Germany. Seemingly, she had gotten a tumor on her back. Mrs. (Unintelligible)berly called me and said that she had passed. I was kind of sad.

What was her name?

Theresa Lawche. But her mother remarried and still lives in Chicago, I guess. I haven't heard from her in a couple of years, but I imagine she's still there.

When did you close your business?

When we built this house. He said, "No more jobs."

She had done her part. I wanted no more tracking in and out. I wanted her to retire and be a housewife.

I miss it.

So we'd close up my business, and we could travel. We traveled and I just closed up and leave the men here, and we'd go and stay sometimes a couple or three months. Before I got sick. I could drive. I used to love to drive.

I bet you did. You liked cars.

He had a sister in California, and I had one in Boston. One year we'd go to California, and the next time we'd go to Boston.

We did a lot of traveling. All through Canada and Mexico. I never cared to go abroad. I never wanted to go abroad. I never did want to go aboard. That is over in Germany and France. I didn't care about that.

You couldn't drive over there, right?

Of course, I fly. I like to fly. My sister...

They went around the world a couple of times. They begged us to go with them. I've never flown, and I don't like water. We went to Martha's Vineyard. Went to visit my sister one time. They (unintelligible) to get on this boat to Martha's Vineyard, and a storm come up. It was pitch black. They said, "Oh, come on downstairs." (Unintelligible) I said, "I'll never go in a boat in that environment." We stayed four or five days at Martha's Vineyard and coming back it was beautiful. I taken pictures all the way coming back. The sea gulls following the boat, you know. But.

But that's enough for a lifetime, right?

If I hadn't gotten-oh, I guess I could. Then we thought about going to Hawaii. We have very good friends, like a brother...

Then you would have to convince her. You'd have to blindfold her.

We had almost made up our minds.

We were going to Trinidad. See, my sister lives in Boston. All of her friends are West Indians. She's been to Barbados and Trinidad. She and her daughter went on one of these boats where the boat is you hotel, you know. Different islands you know. Grand, beautiful time they had. I said, "You can tell me about it."

You really would go?

We made up our mind at one time that was going to go.

But you still could do it.

Well, yeah, but I don't know.

Just take your medicine. Really, it may just be the best thing for you.

That's what everybody says. Just to get away. We've gotten home bound I guess. And I don't know. It's like pulling eye teeth to get us away.

And as I say what do they got that I don't have. I have customers who say, "Mr. Shavers, why don't you go to Florida in the summertime and get away from the heat, the cold." I say, "I can get away from the cold. I stay in. I don't have to go to Florida." Just kidding you know.

What's important is as long as you enjoy your life.

We enjoy each other.

That's great. You don't really have to leave.

We've been very fortunate. God's been good to us, and so we have no complaints I guess, really.

I think that's great because you worked hard at it. I think that's marvelous.

Yeah. And I've been in a position to be able to help some of my relatives that wasn't so fortunate. And it makes you feel good that you can do that. (phone rings)

So now you can tell about joining the Catholic Church.

Oh, I joined in 1947. My sister had been a Catholic. In fact, she had raised her children in the Catholic Church. Her husband died, and she went to Chicago and lived with a cousin of mine. The son of this aunt that raised me lived in Chicago. Margaret went to live with them. She had one little girl. Well, she had two boys and a girl, but my father had the two boys that they raised for her. Then she'd taken the little girl to Chicago with her. Later on she went into nursing in Chicago. Then she got into Catholic Church through living with my cousin and his wife who were Catholics. She went to Saint Elizabeth's up there. And when one of her sons died, I went to Boston to the funeral. And I thought it was the most beautiful funeral that I had ever seen in my life. He was at Fort Dix, New Jersey. And they sent eight boys from the camp home to do errands for my sister. And the chaplain come. And the morning that he was to be buried, they had his casket on a dray draped with... And these boys all walked on the side of that. To me it was the most impressive thing. I'd never seen a funeral like that. Then the priest talked about when this little boy and his mother moved from Ottawa, Illinois to Boston, he knocked on his door and told him he was an altar boy and could be at any service. And he said he could call at four or five o'clock in the morning and said he'd be there. He just talked so. It wasn't sad. It was sad, but if was full of lovely things. So when I come back, I decided I wanted to be a Catholic. So I started taking instructions, and I liked it because I like the quiet and the serenity of it. And you could go there with a boot and shoe on and nobody. There wasn't a lot of gossip and things going on at church. My husband didn't join until several years afterward because he was a hard-shelled Baptist.

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I belong to Saint Anne's Society which is a missionary society type like. Then I was secretary to Saint Anne's for four years, and then I was vice-president of the little society. And then you go into the diocese-what they call the diocese. Each little community has their own deanery, and then they meet once a year, and I was elected from the diocese as a secretary for them. Then I was first vice-president. Second vice-president and first vice-president. Then one year I thought I had enough of it, running back and forth and going, giving, talking. I was social action chairman for the deanery. And I had to go to these different little towns and talk.

Race relations, right. Yes.

After we moved here, I did it for a long while, but it got kind of nerve wracking. Not that I ran into any discrimination. I was treated just beautifully in all these little country towns that I attended. I just decided that I had enough of it.

That was pretty demanding though, wasn't it?

Yes it was. Once a month you had to go to Peoria to a meeting where all the chairmans attended, you know, to give your reports at the National. We had thirty-two deaneries in this community from Kankakee down to Decatur. Then Kankakee went up to Chicago to a different deanery. I have different articles and things that I had a piece in the paper The Catholic Post every month, and I have all kinds of articles that I had to have in the paper.

I hope you are going to give me some of those things to let me Xerox them.

Un-huh. As I said, I enjoyed it. I still enjoy it because we have missed. When Roy was sick, we didn't get to go to church, and you'd have thought we was the King of England getting back, you know. There's different masses, you know. We go Saturday at four o'clock because we used to go at eleven on Sunday, but there's so many people until all the oxygen is taken, and he just can't take it. So we go to a mass now that isn't so crowded. So we go at four o'clock on Saturday, and that's the same as going on Sunday, but being old-fashioned, still I don't think it's Sunday.

Unless you go to church.

Unless I go to church on Sunday. Sort of old-fashioned. But I enjoy it, and they call up. Two years ago all of the priests were here to a cookout, and they're very lovely and friendly, and I like them all. And as I say, one of the priests lived at our house, when we lived on Jackson Street more than he lived up the street at home. He just had to get away. And he'd come down there, and this old ninety-one year old aunt of mine. He come down and gave her private instructions to take her into the Catholic church. She was buried in the Catholic church, also. My stepmother was buried in a Catholic church. She was buried from Trinity. Of course, she was a cook up at Trinity, and they loved her. But my father, of course, never did. No, he didn't bend an inch. He always went to the \[Wayman\] Methodist Church. In fact, he was a local minister up there. My uncle-I guess all my family went. After Third Christian Church dissolved, they all went to the Methodist Church.

Now, where was this Third Christian Church located?

Over here on. What is that-Livingston and Henshaw? Northwestern.

What was that?

The Third Christian Church. It's where Alice's church is now.

The building is there, but it is used by another group now. Yes, I think.

No, it's all boarded up. I hear it's condemned.

Mrs. Dean took a photograph of that for us. I know that is the one. Were you active in any other organization, Mrs. Shavers?

Well yes, during the war, I belonged to Fred Hutchinson unit. Have you ever heard of that?

No, I don't think I have.

It was a society out of Chicago.

Fred Hutchinson?

Fred Hutchinson. He was. This Fred Hutchinson to me it seemed like it was. He was an airplane pilot, and it seemed like he was either killed or something happened to him. Anyhow this organization was named after him. When the boys were drafted to go away we'd go down to the depot with candy and cigarettes and stuff for them you know, white and Black. We would give to them you know. And we had uniforms. (laughs)

Is that right? I have not heard of that organization.

That was during the war. I think it is still active in Chicago. Are you from Chicago?

No, I'm not. Now is that group-it's not functioning now.

No.

Just during the war, right?

I don't think. Bud Billiken Parade. They was always in the Bud Billiken Parade in Chicago. And I'd always go up because we were all officers, and then they was taking in new ones. But those were the only organizations that I belonged to. I was too involved in my work, you know. I was never politically inclined at all.

Were any members in your family involved in politics at all?

Not that I know of. If they were, they didn't talk about it. Because I always say I'm not Democratic or Republican. I'm for the man that's going to help what I feel should be done. They wanted to put a sign out here. I said, "No, I don't advertise what I am because I don't know myself." I have to read up on the people to see.

To know what you are going to do.

Un-huh.

I was going to ask you one other thing. Were there any people in your family who were involved in music?

No, not that I know of.

No. Tom he's a (unintelligible) my sister's husband.

That's on your side, not on my side. No, they was just. No musical. Only Frank, I guess. Frank Osborne he was in that little. But that was years ago when I was a little kid. He lived in Detroit, but he is passed now just a couple of years ago.

Now your sister was a nurse.

Your sister? Is this the one that is in Boston that is a nurse?

Yes.

Where did she get her training?

In Chicago. That was the time when I told you she was in Chicago.

She finished it in Boston.

Oh, did she?

Oh yeah. She was-what was the name of it? Matapan?

Matapan, yeah. You know when you take nursing, six months you got to stay in a mental institution before you. Well, she liked it so well until she stayed in the mental institution.

Oh, she is doing that kind of work?

Up until she retired.

Oh, is that right? That's marvelous.

She was a good one, too.

She loved it. And on the side to build up her social security-that was a state job. To build her social security when I had my aunt who raised her and I in a nursing home here, she went to work in a nursing home in her neighborhood to build up social security. So when she retired.

She would qualify for it, yes.

So now she's retired and she lives in a beautiful apartment that the Christian Science people built, and they rent to retired state workers and social workers and all like that.

That is interesting, and that is in Boston?

In Boston, yes.

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